Thirteen & the Lolita Effect
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- Опубликовано: 14 апр 2025
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"Telepathic" - APOLLO
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Why is it so hard to see child predation as child predation omg
Because these types travel in flocks, if you know what I mean.
They are also predators and will usually try to project that on to you by saying you're the weird one for being uncomfortable
it makes me think people who "can't see it" have skeletons in their closet themselves
Like with circumcision?
@@lopiklop buddy, not the time.
when u said the response from your acting audition was “they liked your legs” I genuinely felt chills
Especially since you don't understand why at first and then thinking back on it when you're older and having that connection happen in your mind
I literally felt so weird
@@fluckter_600 Do women really not understand how nature works until older age?
@m420 sorry but it isn't nature to dehumanize people. civilize yourself.
@gwendolenyoung4198 dehumanize, I don't think that word means what you think it means. What do you think the meaning of human life is? It's procreation.
I remember Natalie Portman said a few years ago that she was so traumatized by the gross and perverted fan mail she got sent from grown men after she starred in "Leon: The Professional" at 12 that she purposefully started to distance herself from the "Lolita" archetype. She instead embraced a more brainy image and would only take roles that she thought were strictly "serious" or suited that image. She was a middle schooler and already had to learn how to navigate The Machine because of how young girls who are perceived as "fast," "mature", or "not innocent" are treated.
Dang.
There were websites with her picture from Leon that just counted the days until she turned 18
@CanIswearinmyhandle 🤮
@@ayanna6327 Jean Reno said he played Leon as neurodiverse because he didn’t want the character to have an inkling of desire for Natalie Portman’s character. Because then it would have been perverse and wrong. He wanted to play Leon as Natalie’s protector/father figure. I only read this recently and I really admired his thought process and the way he shaped his character.
The grass is greener on the other side the female race is judged no matter what
"she looks slightly older than 14 so it's okay" is never a good sentence. "slightly older than 14" is still a teenager...
THIS! I looked older than I was as a teenager. People genuinely thought I was in my early 20s when I was in my mid-teens. That didn't mean I was mentally, physically, or emotionally ready to do what a woman in her 20s does.
@@spiceupyourafterlife I remember a guy in a college psychology class asked the teacher, completely serious, if a girl hitting puberty early meant that she was ready to do things a woman does (he didn't say sex but we were talkinj about sex at class), and that if you should let a kid do those things if they want, I was so, SO baffled at how you can enter adulthood without learning the answers to those questions, I mean that classmate was atleast 10 years older than me and a married man...
I had larger breasts as a teen. Just because a teen looks older doesn't really matter or mean anything, that's a teen with a teen brain and teen emotions, just simply not mature enough or experienced enough to make intelligent decisions, especially when it comes to sex, men, and the like. But truth me, that naivety is what attracts a lot of men. They know that a teen will be easier to control and coerce. I didn't date or lose my virginity until I was in my early 20s, and men WENT NUTS FOR THAT. Not all guys, but they are out there, want naive, inexperienced, pliable women/girls
It’s disgusting stills. Child
@@spiceupyourafterlifeexactly people judge too much and I’m sorry you went through that ❤
I think there is a misunderstanding in media about what attracts old men to these girls. Often times we see these young girls be harassed and sexualized, it is blamed on their bodies and their attitudes, they act mature for their age they say, and thats why the world thinks they are women. But if you were to ask any group of women about how much they where catcalled at any point of their lives, they will tell you, "i got catcalled more when i was a teen".
These kids never look old, they always look "old enough", the face of a child and the body of teen. These adults who prey on young teens(girls and boys), they prey on the youth and innocence. It never was and never will, be about looking old. That is simply the excuse used to blame the kid for being abused.
Exactly.
It's a misunderstanding in society, whenever I tell people that I got catcalled and innapropiately touched more at 9 and 10 than I do in my 20s only for them to act confused because of how I dress as an adult is astonishing, but no, I don't get catcalled wearing crop tops as much as I did wearing my school uniform, wich had long pants.
Exactly. they want naivety, pliability, and inexperience.
Its always been about power. I was never conventionally attractive, and if anything that made me an easier target. I was ostracized & neglected, and my abusers had complete control over me. And thats all thats needed for abuse to foster. Attempting to pathologize abusers just leads to victims being held prisoner instead.
@@Nameless-ny8nk i dress super modest, like, enough to please any conservative grandparent. never wear skirts, only long dresses or wide pants, never wear anything "too feminine", all my clothing hides my body shape, and my hair is never visible enough to be "attractive". i got catcalled for the first time when i was 11 getting into my dads car after a day at the park. two men pulled up in a car and just started shouting stuff at me with a smile on their faces. the worst part is i was probably the most modest i could be. oversized hoodie, wide pants, dirty sneakers, and a winter coat to keep myself warm and *covered*. that's the only time i've been catcalled since i don't go outside anymore unless its with a few other people, but its still weird and kinda scary to think that it happened to me when, by society's standards, it shouldn't have. the reason i commented this is that your "long pants" part reminded me of this situation.
How can grown adults blame a NINE year old for “allowing herself to be photographed” people are sick in the head
Right and the prosecutor in the court trial literally said to her that he thought the photo was "sexy" as if that's not him LITERALLY ADMITTING TO LIKING CSAM _IN COURT_ and yet SHE was considered the bad guy?????? This makes me wanna lowkey jump off a bridge ngl
I seriously feel for Brooke Shields & everything she's had to go through oh my god. Like. On god this reminds me of what kids who grew up in cults & p3do rings have talked about having experienced
So... A little bit of personal connection here for me. I was a neglected kid, quite badly. When I began to "blossom," older men noticed. I sought out stories like Lolita and, subsequently Thirteen, because the idea that it was possible for me to have some kind of agency in these situations where no one was protecting me offered some small comfort. The best I can do now, as an adult, is make sure my own daughter never feels so forgotten.
I’m grateful for your comment. It gave me an “aha moment” and explained so many things about why I acted the way I did as a teen 💔
@@kfespirituu Same oh lord. I'm so sorry any of us ever had to go through any of that bs. I'm glad it seems like the world in general is more openly understanding to and sympathetic towards victims/survivors these days
the vitriol people have towards young women and girls for being leered at or taken advantage of by older men will always drive me crazy. how quickly are we to immediately jump at the opportunity to shun a girl or young actress for "wanting it". the machine is just as cruel then as it is now. these were children
Exactly because it never blames the older man. It is as if the older person cannot just walk away and stop anything from happening. It is the older person's responsibility to put a stop to the situation.
It’s their mothers and parents who exploit them keep getting a pass on this creepy BS. People who focus on gender keep only attacking half the problem. I’m sick of this..
I had that feeling after watching "Impeachment" like Monica Lewinsky was 20 and Clinton was 50 and the president. It's horrible she was blamed
@@Thekawaiiasian101vid men are logical leaders and smart and rational, until they are lil bebes with no agency. 12 y.o. girl? You mean evil mastermind, right? Ugh...
It's the predatory men who are the problem
the fact someone could read lolita as anything other than a horror story about a child predator is concerning
I'm gonna be so for real here. Even if a young girl IS promiscuous, troubled, chasing adult men, even if that were all true, grown men should KNOW BETTER. In fact i think a lot of them DO KNOW BETTER. They just won't admit that. Those men should say no. They are the ADULTS. If a child tries to have sex with an adult you don't blame the freaking child when the adult says yes. That's freaking insane no matter how you look at it. And it drives me insane that there even needs to be distinction between the 2 at all.
I love everything you do❤
Absolutely. There are loads of teenage girls who will behave in a provocative manner…to some extent it seems to be natural to want to emulate an older woman, especially with all those hormones flying around. This is unfortunately exacerbated in our current society but it does not accept people taking advantage of them.
Know better for what? And children don’t have sexual needs & curiousities.
@triggerskull Touch grass, troll
@@skittlemilks1614 so cute that you gave yourself a thumbs up. Such a creative, efforty 3 word sentence you just had to go give yourself a pat on the back
Some religious beliefs and cultures enable this. It makes my stomach turn 🤢
This is the problem I have with so many movies about the bad things that happen to girls. They decided that the best way to demonstrate this bad thing is to do that bad thing to their young actresses, point at her suffering, and say “see? Isn’t this terrible?”
Sounds like certain loud groups trying to point fingers, and the person next to them is abusing a child on the weekends.
I'm convinced that perverts in Hollywood make these films because they want to make soft core 🌽 of their own fantasies with someone else's money.
It's a gross irony that I hope will be looked back on with disdain
I'm a supporter of the "art is meant to disturb the comfortable and comfort the disturbed" quote (within reason - I also think there should be healthy balances between art/media to comfort people and art/media to challenge people) - but I definitely agree that creating art/media that challenges shouldn't be at the expense of exploitation, and that there should be more respectful ways to present some messed-up subject matters.
It's why I'm a big fan of trigger-warnings (and better tagging systems) existing instead of c*nsorship - it's not a perfect system, but at least it can give better autonomy to people that shouldn't need to be exposed to triggering art/media if they don't need it/isn't helping them at all.
@@Scarshadow666 Bullshit. Trigger warnings are clickbait, period. This movie was made to disturb young girls, and comfort the people that would take advantage of disturbed young girls. This wasn't made to challenge, it was made to exploit. Contrast with "Happiness" which came out a few years earlier.
I was impressed that Nikki Reed cowrote the script with director Catherine Hardwicke, making the teen depiction even more authentic.
pretty sure that’s the director of the first twilight, so that’s probably why she was cast in it
i have now seen the point in the video where she says hardwicke is a family friend of nikki reed…so it’s probably both lol
@trinaq Fun fact it was based off of her diary entries!
@@eyeromnium It was definitely based on Nikki Reed’s real life
Catherine Hardwicke has said in an interview that she used to date Nikki's father, so she watched in real time as Nikki's personality seemed to shift dramatically at thirteen. Even though her relationship with Nikki's father didn't last, she felt a kinship with Nikki and wanted to understand what she was going through because she really cared for her. She opened up to Catherine, and if I remember correctly, Catherine encouraged Nikki to write, which was the inspiration for the film.
That court transcript is insane. The "Pretty Baby" Brooke Shields one. That's ridiculous. Are they even human?
All too human. That's what makes it so terrifying
It’s a dark and stark picture of how much society will make excuses for men’s disgusting actions
I’m stuck on how her mom was there the whole time and either made her do it or watched as her daughter was exploited 🙃. I don’t know if I could forgive my mama 😅
It hurts to see how the work of Vladimir Navokov, the creator of Lolita, is so misinterpreted, sexualized, and romanticized. He gave an interview saying that he thinks those who use the term "Lolita" to represent women are idiots who have never read the book. He says that the image of "Lolita" was purposefully exaggerated, that she is not perverted, but a poor girl corrupted by the filthy Mr. Humbert, and that the image of "Lolita," a "nymphet," is what reflects the abuser's obsession, the abuser's point of view.
I agree with you. People have brought up that if the book had been Lo’s point of view, it would have been absolutely horrific and disgusting and terrifying. She in fact DIDN’T bring it on herself or purposefully temp him. She was just being a normal 12 year old child, and that is exactly what is turning Humbert on. That’s what he is attracted to: children. But from his perspective, it was all her fault that SHE wanted him.
Humbert’s point of view was disturbing enough, but somehow people glorify it or dismiss it.
I read Lolita at maybe 17, and when I tell you I had to put it down at times. It was so disturbing I could barely stomach it. Looking at Hollywood's take on it just shows how truly corrupt and morally repugnant these people are. And yet, normal eveyday peopel aren't too different. My school friend had her first swxual experience with a 19 yr old at 13. And by 16, she'd been preyed upon by multiple middle aged men. Let other people (men, women, other girls our own age) tell it, she's the one thats at fault and judged for being 'loose'. The first time I was hit on was when I was 10, maybe 9. This is still such a gross problem.
The only gross thing here is your second sentence from last
@@triggerskullok edgelord
11:41 that is why im totally ok with 23 y.o. playing teens.
Jup, same.
I rewatched the hunger games a while ago and recognized struggling with actually seeing the tributes as aged 12-18. But, I'd rather have the immersion broken than having children act for massive productions instead of going to school and having a childhood
After hearing several of the skins cast reflect on skins as a bittersweet experience and the hidden abuse of Nickelodeon & Disney stars , I agree. I don’t want to see under 18s play teenagers in films about the sexual exploitation of teenagers.
People said the same thing about Euphoria and my only thought was “Mama you really want actual children to act THIS stuff out?!?”😬😬😬
*25+
Honestly it’s kind of a mixed bag for me. I don’t want teens put in terrible situations but having actors who are 20+ play teens also fools us. For example in PLL they tried to make us think the teacher/student relationship was ok and part of that was the fact Lucy Hale was 20yo and the guy who played Ezra was only two yrs older than her. So it didn’t LOOK like a 15yo being groomed by an adult.
I also think part of the reason why ppl feel teens don’t look their age is cuz we’re used to seeing actors pushing 30 play 15/16yo. It’s just a mess all around tbh.
I've looked back on this before, and i was hit on by older men more between the ages of 12 and 20 than i ever have been between 21 and 39. I still get hit on, but it was so much more common and aggressive when i was a kid, and i never dressed "sexy", i was super insecure with my body and wore oversized band shirts and those huge legged jeans.
I look back at pictures from then and i look like a child. Yes, I had a hourglass body shape, but i looked so young
Yeah, or older creepy men wanting to be your friend. I had a lot of that, too. Mentors who I realised were basically pretending I was their girlfriend but never necessarily stepping over the line physically, but being emotionally over the line.
@goober479 That too!
As a child I went to public school in the UK, I have been catcalled less as an adult than I did as a child walking home in my school uniform. I wouldn’t even call it cat calling, it was so aggressive the way these men would shout at me from their cars and work vans.
I’m sorry you went through what you went through. It’s not okay, we were just kids.
@@chibibloodxx98 ive been there too
They know exactly what they're doing. They know you're very young. Adults, especially, predatory adults develop an eye for who's a teenager and who isn't. It's very obvious when you are. When I was 14-16 I thought they just don't know that I'm a kid since I was tall, and that's why they hit on me and grope me, but no, they did it because THEY DID KNOW.
This whole topic makes me sympathize even more for young Black girls who are automatically always seen as older in normal, day-to-day life.
Yup
being a young girl of color with a bigger chest is really difficult as well, i just feel like men are constantly looking at me, and my sister even told me this guy was staring at my butt before. it made me so uncomfortable.
@@IustforIife 1000% I feel for you as I share a very similar experience. It’s unfortunate because this can really warp your brain about men as a whole, especially as we get older but as long as we don’t allow them to dictate how we choose to view ourselves, it reminds us that they truly don’t hold the power that they think they do and allows us to realize that a lot of these men that do things like this, especially to young girls, are straight up predatory.
ALWAYS GOT TO MAKE IT ABOUT ninjas
@@whataboutsci GO HOME ROGER 🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅🍅
13:42 Not to mention, that he's her stepdad. A stepparent shouldn't be sexually pursuing their stepkid.
Yess ! No matter the age !
Love the way you connected this to your experiences as a child in the industry. This video is so well crafted, thoughtful and thought provoking, resonant and I think it's so prescient.
Incredible video. I remember back when the stuff about Polanski came out, SO many people where justifying his actions by putting the girl down. Not even disbelieving what he did, it just apparently didn’t matter because she was an acceptable target.
Yup. Exactly.
And there were others.. because there always are
Who said that?
@@Starkweather133 Have you read the contemporary coverage of the event? Many people did. Many still do. Guessing the POTUS would be one of them.
@@michaelccozensNope. That would be the Hollywood Libtard Left that are okay with it.
I feel like you'd really like the movie Perfume de Violetas. It's a Mexican movie about a friendship between two teens navigating through life. One girl is pimped out by her brother for new shoes and the story shows the ways all the adults around her fail her. Despite her being a girl and a victim, everyone treats her like a jezebel. It's so heartbreaking because it mirrors reality so well.
Yeah, and it does go into growing up and how even grown women will be cruel to you over stuff when you're a victim and can't speak up for yourself
It's always easier to blame the victim that to look at the larger work of dismantling the abusive system that victimizes them, especially as addressing the system means taking responsibility for one's own part in its perpetuation, whether that's done actively or simply via "turning a blind eye".
@@user-fy4zy6un7b Reminds me of the scene in No Child of Mine where a woman runs into the dad pimping out his 12 yo daughter, but she's pissed off because that's her corner.
Yes thats definitely a great movies to also talk about
My sis is from Honduras and she was pregs at 13 but her bf was way older and my dad diswoned her it sucks really
I’m 15 and I swear I’ve spent majority of my time online being called a prude by men 18+ for not liking how they sexualize me or people my age or even younger. I’m so glad that people are finally talking about this.
As if there’s no such thing as “sex” in that age..
let’s be real, those your age do the sexualizing thousand times than adults and you’re already 98% in your adult form. So maybe act your age instead of like an elementary school kid
@ I’m just not interested in being oogled at by disgusting old men. There’s a difference between a teen boy and a 30 year old dinosaur you weirdo. Just be normal and go for people your own age. Also never disrespect me again like that, you don’t deserve to talk to me. But ofc it’s my fault for not wanting 30 year olds to sexualize 11-16 year olds
@@triggerskull never speak to me again. Guess what happened after 20-30 sexualized me when I was 12? I got PTSD. There are real life effects and consequences to your way of thinking but you refuse to see it, you only care about your cute little teenagers. Does someone’s development not matter to you? How many cases will it take for you to realize that you’re hurting people by constantly arguing in the comments that what old people want is more important than a teenagers safety? Because believe it or not, old people who are attracted to teens are notoriously dangerous and susceptible to violent behaviours. P.S this is the exact mentality that she brought up in the video. ‘You’re not that innocent so it’s okay for me, an adult, to hurt you. But also wahh I was seduced by a teenage girl because she wore a bikini to the beach!! Teenagers are such tempters to me specifically, a grown adult. They totally weren’t interested in people their age, it was old people like me!!! I can’t believe this underage kid preyed on me, a full grown adult who views teenagers in an inappropriate way that the teenagers explicitly did not consent to because they are literally below the age of consent!! But it’s okay because I reserve the right to do whatever I want to people’ and now you’re gonna say that I’m being dramatic and overreacting as if I’m not right.
@@triggerskull “she looked slightly older than 14”
@@triggerskull I can’t believe that you just completely disregard the fact that I don’t consent or want this. You don’t actually care about what other people, especially teens and preteens want. All I said was ‘I don’t like this’ and you immediately go ‘well actually here’s a reason why you should just accept it and let me and other people keep doing it’ how old are you? Also isnt it funny that ‘acting my age’ in this situation is being complicit and ignoring my own safety, however in another case if I had done the exact same thing, you’d claim that it was my fault for ‘wanting it/ not making them stop’?
This film came out when I was 13. I remember watching it a crying by the end. This film was the first I'd seen that felt the most like my life at the time.
I looked older for my age and was hanging out with trouble to boot.
I feel like it tought me alot of things early. It helped me stay out of trouble as an adult in a weird way.
I was 13 when it came out and my cousin (who was also 13) talked about it like it was something to aspire to. I am so glad I didn't watch it until I was 31, I don't know it would have affected me as a 13-year-old.
I hope by now child actors are protected enough to no longer have them kissing or anything else inappropriate with adults.
Did the makers of Stranger Things add in a kiss scene because Millie Bobby Brown didn't want to kiss Finn Wolfhard?
I can eat through surgery videos and murder documentaries, but hearing about the photos of Brooke Shields being in Playboy made me almost lose my lunch.
yup, brooke shields in blue lagoon was messed up, but lets not forget they made a SECOND blue lagoon, with Mila jovoich, and nearly the same age and premise. Not surprising as an adult she stretched out a franchise where she blows away zombie men and men in power...
Pretty Baby is INSANE because thee is literally NO reason to have the Brooke actually PLAY those scenes. Body doubles exist!
And nobody normal ever asked for that film concept!
I actually tried to tell my mom that it was disgusting that she had to do that and my mom said she chose that role and it’s her fault like what?!
There’s something really quite disgusting about Nikki being told she doesn’t look “innocent” enough to play the character she presumably wrote for herself, partially based off her life. Why? Because she’s not blonde and has a bit of a tan so she has to be cast as the troubled one who leads the good girl astray?
Yhara Zayd covering Thirteen?! It must be Christmas!
Felt sick watching this, remembering the adults who called 14 year old me a lolita to try and excuse their 42 year old friend's abuse of me
That's disgusting, nothing good waits for them.
St tells me you wouldn’t have called this “abuse” if he was younger than 42
@@triggerskull I was a literal child
@ childhood ends when teenage years start
@@triggerskull No, it doesn't because teenagers are still legally, and developmentally CHILDREN. And either way, this person was taken advantage of by a GROWN ASS MAN.
Thirteen is a surprisingly good movie showing the spiraling that happens when two people who are desperate for love and reslly abd fro each other form a codependency but the romanticizing of what was going dors my NUT INNNN. especially on tumblr back in the day. Its not a "girl blogger story" its a horror story
Love was not involved anywhere in this film. It's all nihilism and ego
@notaras1985 bro what? They are literally 2 teens despite for love and attention that they spiral into hell just to feel something
Memories! Of watching this movie as an actual 13 year-old... with my mum (a mixture of her being cool and progressive while doing scared-straight/D.A.R.E. propaganda). The thing with watching this as an actual teenager-pubescent kid is that while you are focusing on the cautionary-tale within the story, the whole dimension of how the actors might end up being sexualized or placed at similar risks as their characters goes over your head: You're watching girls your age looking cool and gorgeous. You crush on them, you see them doing things your classmates are doing (which you were too uncool to be invited), but you don't stop to think how performing those roles might be affecting those actors your age, you shrugged and assumed that, as professional actors, they could handle it, you...adultify their experience.
I remember watching it at that age with my bestfriend, we glamorized it and wanted to be like them.
Ugh I cried hearing Brooke Sheilds speak about the photos and the way people spoke about her. Girls deserve so much better.
Watching Uma Thruman in that Car Crash hurt. I know Qunetin Tarentino has gone on to say that that's the one thing he did as a director that he regrets, insisting she crash the car and not a stunt double, which ended up hurting her shoulder and neck. It just sucks she has to live the consequences of his poor judgment. It's hard to watch Kill Bill, especially Vol. 2 with that knowledge.
to say that someone has to be innocent to be victimized is more or less to say that one has to be completely defenseless and vulnerable in every way. It's so beyond irrelevant to the question of victimhood.
Yup.
Everyone wants a perfect victim.
@@BlueMoonSamuraimmm
a child can't consent, they are innocent and don't know how to say no. tf
@aspookyspookynight People will still find a way to blame them, especially if they're teenagers.
"They should've known better."
"They're rebelling."
"Look at what they were wearing, they were asking for it."
Brooke shields, Sue Lyon, Dominique swain, Drew Barrymore, Evan Rachel woods, Nikki Reed, Alicia silverstone, Mena Suvari & Mischa Barton all experienced the lolita effect. Thankfully, I think it happens far less with current teen actors as actual adults are usually employed now to play these mature roles.
I would even add Kaya Scodelario for her role as Effy Stonem in Skins starting at FOURTEEN as recently as 2007! The way they portrayed her as like a femme fatale bad girl was so… eugh…
I know you bring up Manson calling Evan 'little girl' in heart shaped glasses, but I also would like to bring up the fact that that is also an entire song dedicated to threatening to beat someone. "Don't break, don't break my heart, and I won't break your heart shaped glasses" always seemed like a clear threat of violence to me.
It’s a song it’s not autobiographical it didn’t take place. I’d like Evan Rachel Wood faking an FBI letter or kidnapping her son.
Didn’t he assault her in the music video on the set? I feel like I remember reading that 😔
@Blue.1889 yes :(
he was violent towards her n i believe he threatened her life.. or held her captive. i cant remember exactly.. but ya hes something else. and i dont think shes his only victim
we need to start talking about how things that are considered art still have a very real possibility of causing genuine harm to people, and that it being at doesnt excuse that
Well then this goes back to the whole art reflects life debate, which is comparable to “which came first, the chicken or the egg?”
I think it’s important to understand that a lot of art depicting abuse is a form of processing the abuse and venting it in a healthy way, instead of internalizing it and trying to push it down into denial where it can manifest into self sabotage and self harm - you’re processing and expelling/expressing the experience and emotions in a safe manner and creating something versus destroying/hurting yourself or others around you.
There’s definitely room to talk about how to consume this art and how to share/present it and spark conversations about safety and harm in better ways though.
I think this is an extremely necessary and nuanced discussion that cannot be simplified down to the idea that “because it portrays abuse it could inspire more abuse”
A lot of art depicting and inspired by trauma opens up those conversations that are taboo and disturbing about subjects that people are uncomfortable having are the ones that end up moving our society forward, and helping us look at ourselves instead of continuing to keep the topic in the dark- when something is the dark, we can’t fully see it/understand it- and when you understand something the best- is when you’re able to treat/prevent/cure the problem.
I've wanted this for so long 💕😭
It's so sad how underage girls continously take the blame for things adults are responsible for.
It is ridiculous to blame it on the victims
I love this video and your insightful take. I hate how we are all made to be complicit without our consent to these horrible behaviors by being forced to be a witness to it all through being exposed to gross ads, soap billboards, disgusting radio hosts, and even casual conversation. It's just all around us, this violence to gender, but watching femenist essays does make me feel better, like I am not alone in noticing this.
This makes me think about why I feel a bit weird when people complain about adult actors playing teens looking old. It never bothered me as a kid, and I usually feel like it's probably healthier and better to have adult actors working than kids. Especially when you hear stories of how kids get mistreated in Hollywood.
My problem with a lot of teen dramas is the feitshization of teens and teen s*xual*ty. I've never watched Euphoria, but I remember watching a video essay that plays the clip where Zendaya's character describes one of the teen girls being preyed upon by adults and being like "Yeah, but she was owning her sexuality in like a kick-ass feminist way." That right there is why I'll never watch Euphoria and most teen dramas (only Veronica Mars and Buffy for me thank you. Those two have problems but at least they have plots other than creep shit).
The upset of this being that young girls then have the older actor in the teen role as the image of a guy to desire and end up accepting the advances of older men while they are still young, I saw it happen
My aunt made me watch this when i was 12 years old. And i was still very much in my Sailor Moon phase and felt so uncomfortable the entire time watching. She was like you're doing this aren't you?!? It was awful.
I had the same experience with my mom. I barely had any friends, hardly ever left the house, and was extremely sheltered. She got into a lot of these situations growing up, so I think it was based in fear.
I had to sneak to watch it around 14 after my friends recommended it, because my older cousin had seen it and was disturbed by it & had warned my mom about it, so there was no way she was going to let me rent it from blockbuster.
Moon prism power!!!!!! ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
SAME I HAD TO WATCH IT WITH MY MOM
Yeah they believe we are doing oegies while we don't even leave our room 😢. Probably they did it at our age...
It just scares me the way predators use these things to like initiate the abuse. Jamie Loftus did a great podcast about the history of Lolita, and there’s people accounts in that that remind me of this.
10:25 I love how annoyed Evan Rachel Wood looks during this interview. Like she's so over the same tired questions and boring assumptions.
And she said 23 instead of 28
When my sister was 9 and i was 11 a grown man was catcalling her from his car. I yelled at him that he was a pervert and she was a child. He looked me dead in the eyes and said, "well she should dress different then." She was wearing a T-shirt and pants. This moment will forever be seared into my mind and I am in my 40s. When Joy Behar was trying to justify the gross treatment of Nikki Reed (who was still a minor) it makes my skin crawl. How can any women defend this behavior by adult men? Disgusting.
When I was coincidentally enough 13, right around the time that film came out, I remember being at a friends house and there was two girls there who watched it and mistook the message of the film as "I need to act like them to attract men" and looking back now it was so uncomfortable even as we were all the same age.
This was me: I was obsessed with the troubled girl archetype.
Some subjects don't need to be explored on screen. In books, you can explore concepts through fantasy without harming actual people. Through movies, you have to use someone's body to tell a story.
they also could’ve casted adults that look young, not actual children :/
They could also use a body double so the kids don't have to actually do the scene. Though there's still some concerns about Hollywood being Hollywood and sexually abusing them in other ways :/
I think you're inadvertently making excuses for predators here. There are plenty of ways to explore concepts about predation on-screen without being predatory in the exercise. These creators simply chose not to do that.
Every abuser wants to pretend their abuse is "necessary". Never accept that idea without stringent examination.
Generative A.I. will change that. Films of the most depraved, debauched and horrible will be made because no actors were used, it's all generated by a.i. from text prompts.
AI replacing the talent of real life actors and actresses sounds like cinema devoid of art.
I remember renting Thirteen on Netflix on dvd, I was 14 y/o in 2008. And I became obsessed with the movie I just wanted to watch Nikki & Evan in every movie they were in & when I rented Pretty Persuasion & Mini’s first time I thought the same thing how their roles in both films were VERY familiar to Thirteen & it just felt odd. Mini’s First Time made me feel so gross & I recently watched it again & still feel the same way. Years later I watched Pretty Baby & Lolita in HS & I was so disgusted & disturbed learned how horribly Sue & Brooke were treated.
I’m gonna be 14 this year
I LOVE that you mentioned Phoenix Rising, more people need to be aware of this doc
I'll check it out. Thank you
This movie remains a masterpiece, especially for us women who grew up in the early 00's and can relate to how hard we were sexualized growing up and pushed to grow up fast. It's got incredible tension, it feels so REAL like a documentary, and the characters are all totally believable. It hits me hard every single time. It's so nuanced and sensitively done overall, though I agree the three-way makeout scene was....skin crawling and not in a good way. I've always found it so fucking BIZARRE how people misread Lolita. It's so obvious Humbert is meant to be the predator.
Sexualising of young women has been going in forEVER it’s not a new problem. Rape, incest, church abuse ran rampant here in Ireland for hundreds of years, young women left pregnant and frightened being chastised yet again for being merely female. The last Magdalene laundries closed its doors in the 1990s. This pattern is repeated all over the world. Yea, some women mature for sex earlier than others, and it doesn’t necessarily follow that if one is physically developed they are developed enough emotionally.
@@phoenixkali Yes I'm very aware of all of those things, but the film was released in 2003, which is why I mentioned the early '00s. It's also when I was growing up, so it's my only personal touchstone, and it was a particularly rough time for teen girls.
@@peppermint23 I agree I felt that we were turning a corner of awareness with the #metoo movement but we have gone back a century in less than a decade in societal norms and expectations. Wonder what happened there?!🤨🤔
@@phoenixkaliit's based on actual biological drives for procreation of the species, and diabolically twists them and isolates them...
Id love a video 3x as long on this topic that actually goes into detail about thidaat. It all also reminds me of the concept of baby groupies.
I loved this movie, I hate what Evan and Nikki went through afterwards but this movie is truly wonderful, Holly Hunter should've won the Oscar.
casting directors for kids need to be put on watchlists
Careful with this. The idea that working with kids is inherently predatory is exactly the "universalizing" excuse predators give. And it's particularly galling when the vast majority of abusers continue to be figures in the families and churches of kids who are, currently, being given even-freer rein to abuse, as opposed to be more stringently monitored.
You're making yourself part of the problem you claim to want to solve, because you're refusing to examine the veracity of the easy answers and scapegoats being handed to you by the predatory system itself. Stop.
this is one of those essays I have to put in my 'favorites' folder for returning to it later. you really hit the nail on the head with these and I like how you focus both on the distinction between the need for fictional portrayals of dark subjects but also the hypocrisy of exploiting children in a piece ostensibly about exploitation
i'm SO seated people are scared
Type shit
ARIANA what are you doing here
I remember watching the Brooke Shields coverage and thinking to myself, my grief, is this how the law treats children? Why is there so much focus on religious piety being thrust upon a child in a courtroom? They scolded her for hours with the most insidious accusations, just so she could get rights back images that would be highly illegal today.
12:17 yeahhh that’s really innapropriate…they could have just showed then closing the door or something. The audience would get the idea
Its super interesting you mentioned "Kids" and talked about how Thirteen became a sort of teaching moment between parents and teens and used as a sort of after school special - in my high school, "Kids" was actually shown in senior health classes up until the year I was a freshman, which is when it was banned by our school's admin. I could definitely imagine Thirteen being used in the same context. Also loved how you connected this to your personal experiences as a child actress - I was also once a wannabe child actress, but I was deemed "too chubby" to ever have a chance at success. In retrospect though, I'm grateful I never got sucked into that world
both movies did the book so dirty
especially with the fact that i’m pretty sure the guy who wrote it (i’m so sorry i don’t have his name memorized) i’m pretty sure WAS a csa victim. the publishing companies have done it dirty too. He asked them to not put a little girl on the cover and guess what they did? put a child on the cover.
@mopeymurray Nabokov. He was a genius. Won the Nobel Prize, I believe, for the novel.
honestly, the whole lolita situation reminds me of how my ex friend pretty much blamed my grooming on me because “i told you not to” in her own words, she failed to realize the servity in my choices, i was lonely- neglected, and seen pornographic material way before i was ready… she was the same age as me and had also been groomed yet somehow had no sympathy. This trope still affects children to pit against eachother too
Thank you for covering Thirteen ❤️
I've watched it for the first time at 12 or 13 and every year since for about 5 years or so.
It may sound odd, but the time I just found great comfort in seeing a story that involved SH. I automutilated myself at that age as well and I felt such immense shame for thinking it was "insane" and that I was for sure the only one.
I guess I romanticized their friendship, I was really just yearning for such a strong friendship myself. But, I did always see their story as a cautionary tale.
Their friendship could have turned out beautiful if the adults in their life didn't fail them so hard
A lot of times I hear men talk about how they think it is stupid and unfair to be charged with statutory rape just because they say a certain age is the cutoff for legality. I tell them it's illegal because it's wrong... Not the other way around.
Proper consent can't be cutoff from proper development. No person below 20 has an even remotely cemented brain structure
@ I agree
I feel like Sam Levinson watched this movie and had it as the inspiration for Euphoria except he doesn't fully understand what teens of the 2010s and even now are going through and didn't get any insight and have teens consulting the series(not that it would have been any better).
The best episode is Special 2, co written by Hunter Schafer at 21 years old. Also, people routinely neglect the fact that the show is actually based on his own experiences, reaching sobriety after experiencing addiction as a teen himself. Far from a perfect writer director but I think at times the critique is overblown, however he brings it upon himself with his bad reaction to criticism and enjoyment of edge lording.
@@JaiProdzI know that the show was based on his experiences with addiction. The problem I and others have with Euphoria is how it relies heavily on shock value and how out of touch it is with the modern teen experience.
@ depends. I have those concerns too...esp the Lolita allusion with Maddy's beach encounter in s1. I knew girls like tht but I wouldn't frame those experiences as consent, and I'd put the weight of that on the older guy. I HATE that he relies on shock. I also think the defense of such scenes as "it's thru the teenage POV, it's not romanticizing it." is a bit troubling and doesn't always apply. When the show debuted I was in my early 20s and really related to it, but I think there's out of touchness that pops up in many Levinson projects with regards to teen dialogue and behaviors. Which pops up in things like Dawson's Creek etc. but feels more heinous when it's HBO and promoted as a prestige show.
Not trying to defend Sam Levinson but Euphoria isn't that unrealistic from what today's teens are going through, I had a lot of friends in school (and I'm talking 12 to 15) who had drug addictions, problems with hypersexuality and stuff. The real problem is how he romanticizes and sexualizes these topics
That is not entirely true. The writing room did consult with young people who could relate to the main characters and the central character of Rue is also essentially Levinson's alter ego. The show has also been widely praised for how it stylizes every scene in order to make the audience get the full emotional experience of a teenager experiencing a prticular situation for the first time. The impression I get is that Levinson simply doesn't want to write a teen drama with relatable characters anymore, so every decision past a certain point is just guided by subverting the narrative and being as artsy and possible.
There is a quote in the Lolita book where Humbert uses as an "excuse" for what he did the fact Dolores aldeady had some experience with boys her age, so he "wasn't her first"
This is a really great channel and one of my favorites for analysis of media.
Thirteen came out when i was thirteen. Me and my best friend watched it together (I was in 7th grade, she was in 8th) and we were shook by how accurate it was to our lives. Granted, we weren’t AS CRAZY as Tracy and Evie, but we were definitely destructive and brought out the worst in each other, which I didn’t realize until our friendship blew up when we were in 9th and 10th grade. Sobering is reality.
I remember being 13, my best friend who was troubled and self harming telling me about the adult men she was with. By the time I was 19, every single girl I knew had some horrifying trauma destroying her psyche, a secret she was carrying around alone that they had no maturity to process. Most often older men. And that year I got taken advantage of by an older man too, but I started drinking to deal with my depression and autism. Then many other men also came after that trauma doing the exact same thing. I also had a 45 year old teacher in school when I was 17 who was trying to groom me and I am fucking sick of this being the reality for girls all over the world. Men need to be fucking held accountable for this shit. Grown women do not do this to little boys constantly.
i hate it so much they shouldn't have gone through that those adults are just creeps
This is a good, illuminating video, and one that's difficult to get through. I had to pause it and collect my thoughts after hearing about what James B. Harris did to Sue Lyon and how the media presented it.
This topic always makes me think of the French movie “For My Sister” named “Fat Girl” for English audiences.
A young girl wanting to be desired or at least thought of as pretty by her peers but ends up being looked at by predators instead.
“Fat Girl” was a wild film.
Omg I'm french and I regretted watching this movie. It's really hard omg 🫤
@ the ending is so unexpected.
When I was growing up watching thirteen was literally a pivotal moment in my life. Before then I had never seen such a realistic portrayal of teenage angst and real world school bullying antics portrayed in film. Rarely have I seen any other film makers even attempt to tackle such delicate source material, let alone attempt to portray this in such a raw vulnerability. I will forever be grateful to Hardwick for her courage and conviction in making sure this movie came to fruition because it actually helped show and teach me as a 12/13 year old girl not to instill my complete love and total trust into every new girl i became friends with and to exercise caution because there are many reasons why someone might want to come into your life. Up until then I naively had and it was absolutely to my personal detriment. ❤❤️❤️ what a beautiful in-depth analysis tysm
13 was one of my favorite movies as a teenager and realizing older that the actors were ACTUALLY 13 at the time of filming messed with me so badly. I got so infuriated by all the grownups in and around them. I know that a story as the story in 13 is very important to say. It is very nuanced, extremelly well directed and it had great performances. BUT BY GOD there has to be another way to tell these stories without using such young actors. Let kids be kids! There have to be adult actors out there that look like teenagers, like comeon! When Elliot Page played in hard candy he was 18 but he could easily pass as a 14 year old and the movie was not immersion breaking at all. Movies are not books where you can write pretty much whatever and noone is getting hurt. It has to be BRUTAL to be forced to grow up so suddenly and in front of millions like that.
Thanks for this video. Thirteen (and Donnie Darko, on that note) were my self-curated introduction to indie cinema at... well, 13 years old, all the way back in 2004.
It is maddening that in the 2020s you still see some people siding with Humpert from Lolita! How the fuck do people think he's the victim?!
The motivated reasoning of misogynists aside, in a way, that could be taken as a compliment to the skill of Nabokov's writing. It's a terrible misreading of the work, of course, but demonstrating how easy it can be for predators to twist reality and cast themselves as the victims in their predatory actions is extremely valuable, as it's a fallacy to which we can all fall prey, to one degree or another, at times in our lives (not in regards to as serious a matter as predating on children, of course, but in the context that we all seek, on some level, to cast ourselves as the victims in situations where we're really the abusers, and how vital it is to honestly hold ourselves to account for our decisions, as getting into the habit of simply assuming anything we did must be good because we did it is so incredibly easy to do and so unimaginably destructive).
It's like the recent Elvis biopic (ignoring his abuse of Priscilla here) which was told from the POV of "Colonel" Tom Parker, and how easy it was to sympathize with Tom Hanks' self-pitying performance before being reminded that Parker was an abusive, exploitative monster who simply refused to see himself as such.
By the countless misinterpretations ever since it first got published as well as the film adaptations..and the publishing companies going against Nabokov's wishes of not having a depiction of a little girl on the book covers..
Humbert is like a pedophillic Patrick Bateman and both of them are weak losers who think of themselves as strong who take advantage of people they consider weak and humbert is an unreliable narrator so some people who misinterpretted the book end up getting tricked into sympathizing with him when in reality hes a huge liar and scumbag.
The film adaptations aren't good because they don't portray humbert well..and ofc adapting a unreliable narrator is kinda hard to do on film but they could've deviated and told some scenes from Delores's perspective where it completely contradicts humberts and makes the audience question or turn against him like they should.
I consider the people who think humbert to be a victim huge ignorant idiots because there's many people like humbert in real life that excuse their behavior..
Lolita is supposed to be a message for family members,decent human beings,and the non ignorant people to protect the little girls and keep them safe from the humbert humberts of the world..
That's part of the point though. Humbert is an unreliable narrator and it's supposed to confuse the reader. That's what makes the book so brilliant and so haunting.
@@theprousteffect9717 oh agreed and it sucks that this gets lost to some people who end up misinterpreting the book that's how for years now lolita became this Hollywood fad due to the misinterpretation and not the story/cautionary tale intended by Nabokov..
But hey it's still nice that there's video essays about this book..
Just sucks the more accessible versions of this story (since not alot of people like to read,or have their own valid reasons as to why they dont read.) is the films which end up missing the point imo..
Sometimes, when I hear all this horrible, horrific pedophilic misogyny, I just wanna be like, "The men who treat women girls this way should come over for tea at my house some time. I promise nothing bad will happen to them, well... nothing worse than what they've done to all these women and girls."
SAME Im poisoning that tea
Yesss
27 or 28?????!!!!! Twice those girls’ age that’s horrid
I first saw this movie at 13 & loved it, I’m 30 now & it’s still one of my favorite movies of all time ❤
Love the way you go into detail!
Just because a child "looks older" it's ok or something? These holiwood-guys are disgusting!
Unfortunately it's not just Hollywood guys, there's completely normal-seeming people thinking that way too.
Not even 'she looks like an adult' but 'she looks slightly older than fourteen'.
I'm in love with your work on this channel! The writing, aesthetic, editing, narration, ideas are all immaculate and beautiful
I actually just rewatched 13 and was thinking about the video you said you weren’t going to make on it lol
Hearing about what Brooke Shields went through is truly disgusting. HOW could people blame her on that situation? Wtf but actually the whole video is just wild. People are horrible. These poor girls.
Girls just don’t get to be children. It’s not fair.
I see it with my child. She's only 11 as of a few days ago. Men ogle her. She is very obviously no older than 12. It infuriates me and I'll growl when I catch it and they always look away and try to pretend they weren't just sexualizing a 10 yr old girl. It's so sick. I look at her and I know she's only been alive for a few yrs, very much just a little girl with no experience and I have to fear for her life all the time. I never leave her alone because I know most xys are evil and predatory because I've experienced it myself. I've had middle agenda men constantly hitting on me, following me, groping me, ever since I was 12. My sister and all the girls in my neighborhood were sleeping with 25 yr old males when they were 13 and 14. I was the only one who seemed to recognize how wrong it was until they became adults and had kids themselves and now they're horrified that men preyed on them so much and they didn't even realize it.
most get to remain children their entire life actually.
@@Djp2987i dont mean to be rude at all, but could u explain what do u mean with that?
@@Djp2987 Bro, seek help, no one hates on an ENTIRE gender without some serious issues with one, or both of their parents. A hateful life ain't worth living, you are capable of doing better.
@pixi677 i dont want to sound sexist at all, so please dont take this as a fact. just my observation. women can skate through life by latching onto a man for security. whether that be financial or comfort. girls can remain childish through behavior, actions and their value, making decisions based on pure emotion and effectively contributing nothing. like a child. women are held less accountable for their actions and there are double standards as well. I hate to say girls live life on easy mode but girls marry/date up. men marry/date down. women are born with their value. men have to earn it.
Another actress who received the lolita treatment is Rose McGowan. Marilyn Manson is an actual predator, can't believe he's not in jail.
his fans infuriate me. people who look up to marilyn manson make me sick, like what kind of twisted mindset do you have to defend this man who (i’m pretty sure) raped a secruity guard ON STAGE. i’m so tired of people idolizing an abuser and alleged rapist. his music isn’t even that good- people think i like marilyn manson just because i’m goth. No i do not, no alternative person likes this man at all
@@AnnaBanana-f2o thats true yes, sorry i more of meant goth haha
@@mopeymurray idk I went to look at a video of a news report of the allegations and everyone in the comments were like: "yeah pretty much what I was expecting". I think his image is so gross and extreme from the getgo that nothing can turn people off him.
Didn’t rose defend him?
@@blazingstar9638doesn’t matter. exploitation is exploitation.
this video is insanely good, i loved hearing about your process to this thesis too !
I love your channel and takes so much. This video made me realize something about myself and my life that I didn't before. I appreciate how what you do provides insight and understanding, that you're not afraid to talk about things that people might be too afraid to discuss.
It's so creepy seeing Alec Baldwin and Edward Norton kissing up on underaged actresses...like it's part of why I couldn't revisit Thirteen ...I don't think i've seen the film in over 17 years. That scene with Kip Pardue!
Thirteen will always be a classic to me, I remember not being allowed to watch it when I first discovered it, I was still quite young, maybe 10/11. Then when I got in high school I watched it & I remember being sort of traumatised but in away glamorised it. I wanted to know what it felt like to be like them. I’ve watched it many times and now I’m my adulthood I look back & I see how wrong society is with sexualising children, it’s nothing new, but it’s sickens me how instead of protecting them were victim blaming instead
Great video as always xx
I do not know what is more disturbing: having to watch a loose film adaptation of a novel about paedophilia or hearing about child acting auditions that ended on the approval of the child actor "having nice legs." 🤮
"I guess she's doing something experimental this time" I thought to myself before realizing I had muted the video and there was in fact supposed to be audio
This movie had my friends and I in a chokehold when I was a teen! I still hear quotes in my head to this day
All I remember thinking recently about 'Sleepover' is having mid 20s Sean Farris kissing up on 14 year old Alexa Penavega and screaming omg...yik.
omg no way he was that old 😭😭😭
Great video! I was hooked all the way through. Your analysis is fresh and incredibly compelling.
Justice for Dominique Swain :(
her performance in that movie was the best thing about it and yet it still ended up ruining her life and any career she might have had and that breaks my heart. she was in a few other things but her public image couldn’t grow past being the girl who played lolita and she ended up just quitting acting altogether. it’s so sad
@@quandaredevil facts. I knew of her image on tumblr as a teen- but her film Tart is on TUBI (i think maybe youtube too?) and she really had potential! I HATE the Lolita trope and what it does to actresses who aren't allowed to grow.
Thirteen has always been one of my favorite movies. I never went through a rebellious phase as an adolescent but I was a teen when the movie came out and I identified with Tracy and Evie’s pain and turmoil. There have been quite a few films since then showing a similar coming of age arc and I think Thirteen remains one of the best. It’s awful to see how they were treated on that press tour and afterwards. Looking back I don’t know that all of those scenes, particularly the one with the older man, were necessary.
It breaks my heart. Sometimes it feels like there is no way of depicting the harm of sexual exploitation without feeding the maw of a subset of the audience which wants to see sexual exploitation.
American McGee almost pulls it off with the sequel to his Alice game. Sadly, the metaphorical imagery of child exploitation felt extremely on the nose. Almost to the point of being distasteful and gross.
Such an impressive video. So happy this came up on my feed. Definitely subscribing. I loved Thirteen. At the time I watched it as a teenager, it almost mirrored my life exactly. It's an important film, but you're right that even films about such subjects done well can cause harm.
I wonder if there was any truth of Vladimir Nabokov going to destroy his book and his wife had to save it.
I could be wrong, but you might be thinking of stephen king? when he first started writing carrie he ended up throwing it in the garbage and his wife found it and convinced him to finish and publish it
I feel like your channel is exactly what I’ve been looking for for so long. Your content is amazing🤍
Check out the story of Lucille Ricksen. She was a Hollywood star in the 1920s who died at 14 and played adult roles in silent films opposite men with pretty sleazy reputations. Some say she died as the result of a botched abortion, but the official cause of death was TB. No one will know for sure because her body was cremated.